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One last thing... | Reviewer: Steve | 1/9/09
I just noticed your ending comment about the seperation of church and state. You do realize that theologians and philosophers alike have spoken out on such a 'wall of seperation' prior to (others during and after) the U.S. formation? St Augustine, John Locke, John Courtney Murray, Thomas Helwys, Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Martin Luther. Locke is the only one of these who was not a priest or a minister. This list could go on and on, however it should be enough to demonstrate that the notions of secularism and disestablimentarianism were birthed by philosophers and spurred on by theists. It is perilous to contend that since atheists too like the notions, that they gave rise to them...though, I'm sure they wouldn't mind taking all of that credit. :)
Bob's comments | Reviewer: Steve | 1/9/09
Finally! Thank you, Bob.
Those are exactly the kinds of responses that earn the deserved respect of any person and from any world view, and, I thank you both for the insight and the manner in which you've chosen to communicate it.
I'll give you the semantic explaination without debate. As I don't know Aramaic or Hebrew, I have very little time, or concern really, in trying to distinquish between "Kindom Of God" and "Kingdom Of Heaven". Further, there's really no point. I think religion is a wonderful human experience and I agree with you completely about the essential message that is being broadcast - the consistent themes delivered. That was a wonderful thing to say. And, it makes sense enough to me.
For me, it's never really been an entirely satisfying question to ask or even have answered as to "Does God exist." I could very well grant that He does. My problem has been that He would have created us in such a way, yet makes it impossible for us to know Him in that way. For any given material experience, even the subjective ones, there are always material explanations for them. Should God exist, we can only guess using faith or, infer His nature from material experience. Reasonably, I can only assume that He has little concern for us knowing Him. That's just how I would interpret it.
Though science is not a religion, both share very similar epistimology. How do we know what we know? The way in which science answers questions is indeterminate of fact. Meaning, for any non-scientific predicament, such as our own existence, there is no material way to answer it with certainty. We decide what reality is - inclusive of what science should be. Though I'd suggest that it is very practical to see that we decide our experiences are 'real' and that the scientific methods of 'proving' those are very reliable. As for religion, it aims to answer (mostly) non-material experience. Who is to say that is wrong? There is no reason to throw out religion simply because the accompanying tales in their texts are inaccurate, borrowed, illogical, or even outright errant. Science and religion are in the process of discovering 'truth'. As neither have the ability to ever confirm their claims in accuracy related to 'truth', we should see that as we learn more, our story about the 'truth' would change...and in both, we do. This is why I loved your first comment and accept it so readily as a sustainable answer.
The only disagreement, and it is trivial, is on the notion of atheism. I have a knowledge of Santa Claus and the Toothfairy. If I deny they are real, I'm not an religious in doing so. It doesn't matter, or shouldn't, what precepts, contexts, or rites are given to either of those beliefs. Denying the specific claims to their existence simply means I am a person who has examined them and have reasoned that the claims are unsubstanciated. I don't see how your definition of atheism holds. You may as well call an atheist a material scientist - one who's world view is shaped by evaluating material experience alone. And in that sense, maybe this will help you and others. Religion is equally about its practice as it is about its belief. Science is all about its methodology - beliefs are not esteemed in the least. My preference then, as an atheist, is to simply give scientific discovery and methodology the platform when it comes to nature, whether that be human or cosmological. Denial is an activity that should be born of applied reason. It is reasonable to deny the gods of men exist. It is not religious to do so. But again, the distiction is trivial to me as long as better parallels can be drawn between religion and atheism. Yours, which is a very common view, simply don't.
Thanks again for your thoughtfulness. It was refreshing. I wish very much that others were as probing into their faith as you. I'd more readily lend an ear to the inevitably more intelligent results of the endeavor. Butt in any time. :)
Point 2 . . . | Reviewer: Bob | 1/8/09
2. Much more briefly . . . On the idea that Atheism is not a religion . . . Atheism is a belief about God. It is the belief that he is non-existent, but it is nevertheless a belief about religion. That makes it, by definition a religious belief. It is not, for example, a belief about cloud formations or flowers or recipes for blueberry pancakes. It is an argument for a certain perspective about religious truth. Atheism is not some kind of secular neutral ground. It is not a social playing field on which everyone is equal. And because it is a particular belief about religious things, it must not be forced on others through education or government, as separation of Church and state dictates.
Part 3 . . . the last . . . | Reviewer: Bob | 1/8/09
Matthew 24:36 & Mark 9:1. Great question!!! (I wish more Christians would ask it!) Matthew 24:36 is concerning the return of Jesus Christ at the end of time, and so the ‘day of the Lord’. Mark 9:1 is concerning the coming of the Kingdom of God. These are not exactly the same thing. Let me explain.
The phrase “the Kingdom of God” or “the Kingdom of Heaven” refers to the fact of God’s rule. The kingdom is not just an expression of geography, nor really of some time period, instead, it is a statement of the reign of God. For example, as a Canadian, I can say that I am under the rule of the British Crown. (Albeit in a limited sense). Should I visit the US, for example, I would not cease to be under her rule. In the same way the Kingdom of God is the fact of God being in charge.
Christians teach that this world has come under the control of Satan, the ‘Prince of this world”. We say that Jesus came to ‘inaugurate the Kingdom of God”. In other words, in Jesus Christ, God has begun to take back control once again. Whenever we see someone healed of sickness, whenever we see justice rise up over injustice, whenever we see God’s people acting under his sovereign power, whenever we see demons expelled, we say that the Kingdom of God – the fact of God being in charge, taking control again – is come. (Bono actually refers in some of his music, btw, to the Kingdom Come.) An example of this in the NT is Matthew 12:22-28 (Luke 11:17-20), where Jesus is challenged after expelling a demon from a man. His response is that if he has, in fact, expelled the demon by the Spirit of God, then the Kingdom of God has come. Not will come, but has come – and that is because what they are seeing is an expression of God’s sovereign power advancing into the world.
At the end of time, the Kingdom that Jesus has inaugurated in his first coming will be finally consummated. At that time, God’s sovereign rule will be established over all things. We live between the times. At Pentecost, God’s Spirit was poured out on the people who believed in Jesus. At that moment, the experience Jesus had of living in God’s kingdom became a possible experience for all who trust in Jesus. We express that fact now by saying that Christians, upon giving their lives to Christ – abandoning their lives here to serve instead Jesus in his kingdom now – are entering the Kingdom of God now.
So, Jesus was not told the day or hour of his coming at the end of time, but he could speak intelligibly of the coming of the Kingdom of God with power – something that many of his disciples did see on the day of Pentecost, and something that all who put their trust in Jesus should experience today. This is pretty foundational Christian teaching . . . I’m surprised at how poorly understood it is even in the church!
To get some references on this teaching, (so you don’t think I whipped it up on the fly to make awkward passages fit!), you should be able to get your hands some of George Eldon Ladd’s work, or some of John Wimber’s teaching. I think C.H. Dodd was the chap who actually coined the phrase “the now and the not yet” when it comes to teaching on the Kingdom of God (expressing the idea that the Kingdom has been inaugurated in Christ, but will be fulfilled at the end of the age.)
Blessings on you! Thanks for letting me jump in!
Ok if I jump in? | Reviewer: Bob | 1/8/09
So saddened to hear the tone of this discussion. Certainly not reflective of Christ, who tended only to raise his voice with some religious leaders, and not so much the crowds that loved his voice, those caps are really harsh in spirit. Be at peace – why not take the text of what you’ve written to your pastor, go over it there, pray together, and see what steps the Lord leads you in from there? Check Romans 12:9-21, especially 12:18. I’m concerned for you, and hope that you can hear that well and from a sibling in Christ Jesus.
I think, Steve, you must already be aware that the volatility you’ve encountered is not a reflection of a theological perspective per se, and is rather one personality among the millions of Jesus’ followers that exist. I expect you already know, too, that ongoing debate will serve only to agitate or hurt someone with that kind of experience of the world . . . I appreciate your not shouting back. (Isn’t all caps universally agreed upon on now as shouting?)
I won’t wander through the all debate you’ve been involved with – so forgive me if I miss something already said – some of it’s rather tedious to read. I’ll just make some comments if that’s cool.
1. The ancient Hebrew community that developed and cherished the Torah, (our Old Testament texts), certainly comes out of the same cultural pool as the Mesopotamians & Babylonians, etc. The flood narratives and several other parts of the OT are arguably at least influenced by that pool – if not inherited from it. Even the name Yahweh, if I understand correctly, is actually originally a Canaanite word, and the people in the land seem to have passed it on and found it usable to describe their Hebrew experience of God as the generations went by. Some of our Psalms look like they may even have been Canaanite hymns sort of retooled for the Hebrew worship of Yahweh. Psalm 29 is one, I think – though it’s been a little while since I’ve read on the topic.
Those kinds of facts have never been an issue for me. Every generation of God’s people has been in the business of using their cultural forms to express their experience of God. What’s remarkable to me is how consistent the core of Christian theology has remained despite the radical changes and emphases of 2000 years and a whole wide world of cultural expressions. The practice of bringing Christianity to others intentionally in a prefab cultural form is pretty much old hat missiology nowadays, and the result across our globe is a beautiful diversity of Christian expression. African evangelicals in worship sound so much different than Korean, say, and the issues for evangelicals hiding in Saudi Arabia or Iraq are likely so different from the priorities of those in the underground church in China or being killed by Buddhists in former Burma, all the more different from the crises of apathy in suburban Vancouver or Birmingham, and yet we nevertheless find such consistency in core theological teaching. Sure there are differences, but the Apostles Creed still pretty much meets muster wherever you go. My point in mentioning this is that it is a legitimate practice to use the language, narratives and music of our day to re-express the timeless truths of God.
Yes, narratives too. For ancient Hebrews learning the stories of their day and culture, they would have recognized in them the acts of God – and so would naturally have retold the true stories of their day, but from their God-seeing perspective. The same happens now. An atheist in California perhaps sees the 911 attacks as somehow connected to poor ongoing American foreign policy, a Southern Baptist Christian in Dallas tells the same story, but wonders what God was doing in that moment? For them, perhaps the story could be about God’s frustration with American immorality, or else on the other hand, their narrative could be about the way God miraculously reached into the darkness and saved some people from the terror. As an ancient Hebrew tells the story of the flood, he sees it as a servant of Yahweh.
The point is that, just because some stories in the OT are found in pre-existent cultures, one need not conclude some illegitimate or undermining dependence. To the contrary, we merely have faithful Hebrew people from that day giving their side of the reality they knew. I find that quite inspiring.
Thought so! | Reviewer: Steve | 1/7/09
Sugar, I don't know where to begin.
Well, first, citing from the bible to prove the bible is valid is quite daft. Second, I knew you would say that the Christian researcher(s) whom I cited were "false" Christians...since they disagree with you - I even called it. Again, you throw out all archeological data collected from years of research; you don't even try to draw different conclusions from the data, you just ignore it outright...good on you! Third, atheism is not a religion. Perhaps you'd care to share the ways in which you consider it to be. Do that. I'll be happy, in the mean time, to post the qualities of a cult and then directly parallel that with the Jahova's Witnesses - which is less a religion and more the former.
And honey, the lyrics you quoted from "Vertigo" are *supposed* to be a reference to Matthew 4:8,9. If you could freaking understand literary devices, perhaps you'd not jump to inane conclusions. You might find that U2 isn't that bad and the most of the bible is allegorical - since you are functionally illiterate and have no clue of what that means, use dictionary.com.
While you're at it, will you also look up bipolar disorder and then explain how the Yahweh in the Old Testament and the Yahweh of the New Testament is NOT suffering from its effects? Finally, explain to me how Jesus in Matthew 24:36 states that only God knows when Jesus is going to come back, yet in Mark 9:1 various translation don't allow for Jesus to simply 'forget'...Here's the whole passage:
"I tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death until they see the kingdom of God arrive with power." - International Standard.
"I can guarantee this truth..." - God's Word.
"In solemn truth I tell you that..." - Weymouth New Testament.
"Most certainly I tell you..." - World English Bible.
"Truly I say to you..." - New American Standard.
Since everyone he was speaking to is dead, either Jesus 'forgot' that he couldn't make such a claim, or, he lied, or we all should be *very* cautious when the Son of God uses the term "truth" - as it is certainly a relative thing to him.
And, while I'm continuing to feed the troll (read, you), understand that I'm performing a civic duty in keeping your attentions here so that the other users of the internet can have one less kook to worry about (read, you) as they peruse.
This is so funny that it's almost cute! | Reviewer: Steve | 1/7/09
"AFTER the Flood, Noah and his family lived in the area of Babylonia. As his family/ descendents quickly multiplied, THEY PASSED ON - at least by word of mouth - THE STORY OF WHAT GOD HAD TOLD NOAH, and WHAT HAPPENED with the PURPOSED GREAT FLOOD that did occur." - teresa1
2420-2410 B.C.E, eh? Honey, the archeology of the epic is dated at 2700 BC. In case you are forgetting the BC and what that means...in BC, a larger number indicates an *earlier* period of time. Gilgamesh the man-god (jesus, that sounds familiar...and pre-dates, well, Jesus), wasn't around to hear Noah's descendant's tale. He was already dead.
But none of that is even the funny part, sugar. What is would be the idea that incest is punishable by death according to the Old Testament. However it is the ONLY method of populating the Earth both in the Garden of Eden and after the flood - God seems to like the paradox. This is so funny because a post-flood world would have had to have been so frought with incestuous activity as to populate what archeology knows as Babylon in such short order - "quickly multiplied" indeed!
What you still haven't explained, outside of failed attempts at Gilgamesh, is the flood of the Summarians which give rise to (reflected in) the epic. That story is even older. You also did not explain at all how the Caddo indians of North America have a flood myth too...yet cannot be linked culturally to Noah-esque myths. You still have yet to account for the dates of the flood myths around the world and how none of them refer to the same specific date for any given flood, nor do most of them speak of a *global* flood - several myths, including the Summarian, refers only to a confined local area of land...further, that all these flood myths have "wet" conditions for different periods of time. Even if you *still* think all these flood myths are attributable to the flood of Noah, you absolutely must see how errant oral tradition is given how your "one flood" theory is seen in so many forms. Guess what most of the Old Testament is preserved by? Oral tradition. That doesn't surprise me though. Most legends have this kind of background. :)
So Much FALSEHOOD has Been Used to FIGHT THIS GOD | Reviewer: theresa1 | 1/6/09
You shouldn't use sources from Christendom (FALSE, Christ-disobedient, pseudo[fake]-"Christianity") as any part of your "defense", because they DO NOT HOLD UP as being ALL-TRUE when compared to God's own words either.
In fact, as you may realize, as you "play that card" is that you are ON THE SAME SIDE with FALSE "Christians" in your FIGHTING AGAINST THIS GOD by rebelling against his words and fighting His messengers of them.
Indeed - Atheists, agnostics, FALSE "Christians" of many varieties, pagans, Buddhists, Toaists, those of Islam, Hindus, Jainists, etc., etc., etc. all can be seen, as even a "snapshot" sort of testimony - "SPIRITUALLY" joined together for the sake of world "peace and security" at the United Nations at times, n'est ce pas? WHY, EVEN BONO WAS THERE THIS YEAR (this past fall). I wonder if he showed them all his "Yahweh" video............or, if he just let that Yahweh-blaspheming piece of dung keep playing to the world in the background via a major global video-sharing website (and more)?
NO TRUE and loyal, Scripture-following/holy spirit (God's power)-following worshiper of THIS God is part of that World Council of Religious Leaders, and neither are they fans of it.
Also, NO TRUE worshiper of THIS God was SEDUCED by famous (and "powerful" among men) [combo] atheist-agnostic-pagan worshipers of "the creation" TO SIGN AWAY THEIR FAITH, by signing a paper at a (past) "Global Governance" meeting, that THEIRS IS NOT THE ONLY "TRUTH" - like many FALSE religious leaders, and, notably FALSE "Christian" representatives did.
Are you seeing common features and goals in such anti-God, antichrist propaganda yet??
"ALL OF THIS, ALL OF THIS CAN BE YOURS/ ALL OF THIS, ALL OF THIS CAN BE YOURS/ ALL OF THIS, ALL OF THIS CAN BE YOURS/ JUST GIVE ME WHAT I WANT/ AND NO ONE GETS HURT" (Again, the bridge from U2's "Vertigo" song - COMPARE Matthew 4:8,9)
You should see what is being worked, and you NEED TO, because you, too, "sir", have bitten into the SAME fruit, but need to spit it out, fast (and APOLOGIZE, TO THIS God).
And, YES, as A WITNESS TO THE SCRIPTURAL TRUTH OF THE GOD OF THIS NAME, YAHWEH - JEHOVAH, THERE ***IS*** A UNITED, GLOBAL PEOPLE WHO ***DO*** LOYALLY AND OBEDIENTLY HOLD TO HIS WORDS AS THE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY - both for the world and universe, but, also, in OUR INDIVIDUAL LIVES.
None of us are perfect, yet, but we are generally obedient to our Maker's instructions, as best as we can individually be - to his commands and principles THAT THE WORLD IN GENERAL (including FALSE "Christianity") CHOOSES TO SPURN as being archaic, obsolete, not "enlightened" enough, etc., as they put their confidence and loyalty in the philosophies of men and demons INSTEAD.
So, NO - you "proved" NOTHING that was counter to THIS God's words.
NEITHER DID YOU SUCCEED in changing my mind whatsoever, except to make me MORE CERTAIN that this God's words and prophesies are TRUE and are rapidly and intensely reaching their total fulfillment for this old world system.
NEITHER can LIARS and FIGHTERS AGAINST THIS GOD BREAK THE FAITH OF HIS TRUE WORSHIPERS.
The fierce LIE propaganda against this God and his people being so thickly worked today, just prior to Armageddon, was long-ago prophesied and described - warned against.
"Yet these [men] are SPEAKING ABUSIVELY OF ALL THE THINGS THEY REALLY DO NOT KNOW; but all the things that they do understand naturally like the unreasoning animals, in these things they go on corrupting themselves.
Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Ba´laam for reward, and have perished in the rebellious talk of Ko´rah! These are the rocks hidden below water in YOUR love feasts while they feast with YOU, shepherds that feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried this way and that by winds; trees in late autumn, [but] fruitless, having died twice, having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that foam up their own causes for shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackness of darkness stands reserved forever.
Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E´noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and CONCERNING ALL THE SHOCKING THING that UNGODLY SINNERS SPOKE AGAINST HIM.”
These men are murmurers, complainers about their lot in life, PROCEEDING ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRES, and their mouths speak swelling things, while they are admiring personalities for the sake of [their own] benefit.
As for YOU, beloved ones, call to mind the sayings that have been previously spoken by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, how they used to say to YOU: “IN THE LAST TIME THERE WILL COME TO BE RIDICULERS, PROCEEDING ACCORDING TO THEIR OWN DESIRES FOR UNGODLY THINGS.” These are the ones that make separations, animalistic [men], NOT having spirituality." (JUDE, 10-19)
Then, there is 2Timothy 3:1-9,12,13 -
"But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
Now in the way that Jan´nes and Jam´bres resisted Moses, so these also go on resisting the truth, men completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their madness will be very plain to all, even as the [madness] of those [two men] became....In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled."
And lastly, this - for those that think they are "so smart" that their words, reasonings, and purposes are greater than those of God Almighty's; or that they are somehow unaccountable to him, "safe" from his sight and soon-coming deserved, just vengeance - especially since they have the "approval" of the bulk-mass majority of other MEN:
"For God’s wrath is being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who are SUPPRESSING THE TRUTH in an unrighteous way, BECAUSE WHAT MAY BE KNOWN ABOUT GOD IS MANIFEST AMONG THEM, FOR GOD MADE IT MANIFEST TO THEM. FOR HIS INVISIBLE [QUALITIES] ARE CLEARLY SEEN FROM THE WORLD'S CREATION ONWARD, BECAUSE THEY ARE PERCEIVED BY THE THINGS MADE, EVEN HIS EXTERNAL POWER AND GODSHIP, SO THAT THEY ARE INEXCUSABLE; because, ALTHOUGH THEY KNEW GOD, THEY DID NOT GLORIFY HIM AS GOD NOR DID THEY THANK HIM, but THEY BECAME EMPTY- HEADED IN THEIR REASONINGS and THEIR UNINTELLIGENT HEART BECAME DARKENED. #### ALTHOUGH ASSERTING THEY WERE WISE, THEY BECAME FOOLISH ### and turned the glory of the incorruptible God into something like the image of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed creatures and creeping things.
Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, even THOSE WHO EXCHANGED THE TRUTH OF GOD FOR THE LIE and VENERATED AND RENDERED SACRED SERVICE TO THE CREATION RATHER THAN THE ONE WHO CREATED, who is blessed forever. Amen. That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.
AND JUST AS ### THEY DID NOT APPROVE OF HOLDING GOD IN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE,### GOD GAVE THEM UP TO A DISAPPROVED MENTAL STATE, to do the things not fitting, filled as they were with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, badness, being full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malicious disposition, being whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, insolent, haughty, self-assuming, inventors of injurious things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, false to agreements, having no natural affection, merciless. ALTHOUGH THESE KNOW FULL WELL THE RIGHTEOUS DECREE OF GOD, THAT THOSE PRACTICING SUCH THINGS ARE DESERVING OF DEATH, THEY NOT ONLY KEEP ON DOING THEM BUT ALSO CONSENT WITH THOSE PRACTICING THEM."
No, you DIDN'T just INQUIRE and ASK for "proof" about God's existence and the validity of his words, etc. You attacked with lies, slander, and other UNJUST abuse.
Long ago, a non-Christian, well-respected teacher of Law, named Gamaliel, had this to say to his fellows, who were bent on making trouble for Christ's apostles and disciples:
"...I say to YOU, DO NOT MEDDLE WITH THESE MEN, but let them alone; (because, if this scheme or this work is from men, it will be overthrown; but IF IT IS FROM GOD, YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO OVERTHROW THEM;) otherwise, YOU MAY PERHAPS BE FOUND FIGHTERS ACTUALLY AGAINST GOD.” (Acts 5:38,39)
There is a SPIRITUAL WAR FOR HEARTS AND MINDS GOING ON, NOW, more intensely than ever before.
YOU are involved in that, whether you want to be or not. The "default" side for apathy or attempted "fence-sitting" is with the rebels, too.
Come Armageddon Day, SOON, EVERYONE alive will be found on either one of TWO sides: Either WITH those loyal, obedient and true to THIS God, Jehovah-Yahweh; OR on the side of all rebels against THIS God, fighting and disobeying him as they see fit.
Atheism, agnosticism, and the world's FALSE religions, again, ALL TRULY, ULTIMATELY WORSHIP A COMMON gOD, whose name is Satan - or "Slanderer" of the Creator; and they exist under his heart-and-mind-control POWER for his LIES that they beLIEve in. Again, thus the state of the world.
But, again, the TRUE God will NOT let the trouble made by stubborn rebels against him go on endlessly - he also cares for those faithful to him, humans on this earth who suffer due to the hate and injustices put on them by "godless" ones and FALSE religionists. (2Thessalonians 1:6-9)
The time of his patience is nearly OVER.
Fair warning is going out all over the earth, as prophesied. (Matthew 24:14; Ezekiel 3:17-21) Then, soon, "the end will come" - just like it did in Noah's day, for REAL.
Then will come Jehovah-Yahweh's whole new world system here, with all stubborn, unrepentant trouble-makers against him *gone*, just as they were when Noah and those with him stepped out of the Ark, saw the rainbow, etc.
"AFTER THE FLOOD, all the colors came out" (from U2's "Beautiful Day").....
....AND THEY WILL AGAIN, at least so to say, AFTER ARMAGEDDON, SOON.
The standard of atheism is to MOCK that; the standard of FALSE religion is to take NO real "NOTE" of that, nor voice any real, urgent WARNING about these things; but to (ALONG WITH ATHEISTS) put trust and faith in elements of SATAN'S world system (political, economic, and FALSE religious/ philosophical ones), as if they will CONTINUE to go on - INSTEAD of supporting and promoting God's own scripturally-described, heaven-based kingdom as mankind and individual's ONLY HOPE.
So, you can listen to people who snore and are talking in their sleep; or you can wake up and listen to the scriptural truth that every good thing around you testifies to.
YOUR CHOICE. Its called "free will", but use it wisely - THIS God DOESN'T HAVE TO keep on granting life to anyone who keeps on rebelling against him; and, in fact, he WON'T.
So, that's it? | Reviewer: Steve | 1/3/09
You say I'm ill-informed about the flood myth, yet when I support my claims and point out your errors with cites, Christian sources at that, your counter is to ignore the subject altogether? And sugar, I was trying to patronize you...and, I'm glad to see that it worked...sugar.
What I said about relative moralism is that religion has as many blemishes as any other world view - such as atheism, which is *not* a religion. Sweden, Norway, the Czech Republic, they all seem to be very good examples of a religion-tolerant people despite having at or over 80% of their populous either identifying themselves as agnostic or atheistic. But again, if religion (Jewish, Christian, Muslim) offered a moral standard, there should be no straying from the standard especially by the most diligent and faithful followers. What we find in these extremely faithful followers is quite the opposite. We find extremely immoral behavior - from the Israeli conquest of the promised land that involved the genocide of several tribes to include the people of Jericho to the Cannanites, the Christian Crusades and the Inquisition, to current day suicide bombings of the Islamic Muslims. But again, I needn't go into more detail than this except to point out again, morals are relativistic. Citing specific grivances on either side simply ends in a tie. My point should be taken by now - if only you could read.
As for fighting God, what's there to fight? I am merely asking you how you know *your* god exists and how you know your god is the *one true* god. As I said before using Genesis as a case-study, as it were, that either God is omniscient and omnipotent...*OR* he authored Genesis. Whatever you say God is or is not, you cannot prove except to say that you believe in what scripture says about Him. That may be fine for you, however, it is not for me given the errant contents thereof and the code of conduct layed out by the biblical example set by it's God - Yahweh. Again, God lies outside of our ability to perceive him if He exists at all. No one can claim to know anything about Him, from His nature to His intent.
This whole conversation stems from you, the Jehova's Witness tolken wingnut, declaring that not only is the atheist wrong but that the majority of Christendom is wrong about God. And while you may interest some theists' mind to your take on God simply because by default they believe in one and are inclined to listen to scripture, you must find another way to convince deists, agnostics, and atheists. You must use reason and logic. On that front, you have been shown to be severly wanting. May your mind continue to rot, festering in the solace of faith, aborting the best uses of the mind. The rest of us simply watch with awkward amusement.
I Meant Nothing Compares to.... (Jehovah-Yahweh's) Truth | Reviewer: theresa1 | 1/3/09
Can a person be so far GONE as to write this?:
["Steve", speaking of God Almighty] "despite creating a very robust universe bound by the laws of physics, He's absolutely *devoid* of scientific prowess.."
Be warned: You are fulfilling another Bible prophecy: Romans 1:18-32
You cannot be helped to admit to truth in your expressed state of mind and heart.
What did this to you?
DID YOU ACCEPT THE BRAINWASHING that has been worked so strongly in the "higher" education system, especially in recent years?
Were you successfully brainwashed by that so-called "toleration" education "goal" that has, in actuality, taught TOLERATION OF ANYTHING BUT TRUTH FROM GOD HIMSELF?
I RECOGNIZED that SATANIC BRAINWASHING when it was TRIED on me.
I SAW THE SCHEME, recognized its SOURCE, and REJECTED ITS LIES.
I saw the following steps in play at two different colleges (this was 2004-2005).
1.) Try to convince students that their's is "not the only truth"; and that it is wrong and backward to not be willing to aquiesce their beliefs so as to "get along with others."
2.) Utilize power-position of the teacher- implied threat to students that if they hold firm to their beliefs about God and dare defend those beliefs by speaking/ writing about them to others/ in their assignments; they will be branded "interculturally incompetent" and a socially problematic, unintelligent backward fool - they must be ready to take the penalty of being marked with degrees of FAILURE, and stuck with a poor grade on their educational record. (How interesting that classes with this built-in AGENDA became REQUIRED for a degree.)
3.) DEMORALIZE students. Teach acceptance of fornication in all its forms, especially homosexuality. Example of an assignment I (later) saw: Match the slang terms used in PROSTITUTION to their definitions.
4.) With beliefs now successfully aquieseced/ weakened/confused; and natural conscience-guards now impaired/ SOLD OUT by demoralization; the students/subjects are now more vulnerable to ACCEPT LIES.
5.) LIE to them and TEACH SLANDER: Insist on DENIAL that anyone can "have/know the truth about God"; and that if a person DOES insist that they have found such truth and are not willing to give it up, at least in part, THEY ARE A MENACE TO SOCIETY - they are THE OBSTACLE TO WORLD PEACE; and so they should be fought and ridiculed as being so very unintelligent/ "uninlightened" (and "no fun", for holding to a Divine moral code).
6.) Teach deeper evil, such as that one should "accept"/ not be judgmental towards perverted SEX TORTURE done to young people as a rite of passage, to appease tribal demon gods.
Promote "scared service to THE CREATION rather than the One who created". (See a PROPHECY regarding this at Romans 1:25)
6.) Your subjects are now likely successfully brainwashed to reject truth and guidance from their very own Maker, and are so are more prepared to believe and do the bidding (even fierce injustice) of "powerful" men and demons in this world system, which is currently under the power of Satan the Devil (slanderer of God).
The RESULTS of this mass brainwashing can be seen to glare at times - i.e., when people take to fighting the Creator himself by fighting his words, spirit (his power) and messengers of his scriptural words. Such fighters thus assume (at least in their own minds) a position of being HIGHER THAN GOD HIMSELF - persons who are even "entitled", by their "educational credentials" (so they may think, in their minds) to SPEAK ABUSIVELY and SLANDEROUSLY of their very own Life-Giver.
7.) Brainwashed subjects are also now prepared/trained to try to pass their brainwashed condition onto others, employing some of the same tactics of deception and corruption of mind worked on them - as a fatal spiritual DISEASE.
Were you, "Steve", among the many who mentally succumbed to such worked brainwashing?
(Is that why you have been compelled to fight scriptural warning messages?)
I WALKED OUT of TWO such brainwashing classes at two different colleges. As soon as demands were made to aquiesce and not defend my firmly held spiritual beliefs, I protested: I spoke up; and I WALKED OUT OF THOSE CLASSES. I REFUSED to give up my integrity and loyalty to Jehovah/Yahweh God.
You? Were you a participant in that mass-brainwashing in the name of intellectualism as worked through the "higher education" system? Or, did you pick up your conclusions and deceptive tactics elsewhere - even though they are basically THE SAME as that large-scale brainwashing worked through schools?
Either way, your speech and unjust, deceptive tactics reveal that you have been seriously affected by that general brainwashing that has misled (through various means) and has spiritually blinded the bulk-mass of the world. However, for your aggressive public slander of God Almighty and his truth - for your intense speech and actions of rebellion - you seem to be among the worst cases.
Your expressed views are neither different nor superior to those of the bulk-mass blob, despite their haughtiness; and neither are they innovative or original - they have the world's first and biggest lies at their base.
Again, when it was demanded of me to ACCEPT LIES and SELL OUT my (true and so treasured) beliefs, which would have destroyed my relationship with my Creator; I REFUSED. I WALKED OUT. I KEPT MY SPIRITUAL INTEGRITY TO GOD - which is more valuable than anything.
YOU? WHATEVER MADE YOU SELL OUT - even the truth that your inborn conscience would have/should have testified as being something no one should be allowed to mess with/ swindle from you?
What did you actually "get" from such a deal?
Have you been left a fool?
What will you finally be left with?
Will Thomas Jefferson or any of the others whose ideas you have used to publically fight against the teachings of God Almighty himself with also be able to protect you against Jehovah-Yahweh's vengeance soon on Armageddon Day - or will they be able to resurrect you from the dead, should you die before then, using the power of their money, "intellectualism", "power" (among men), or fame??? If they can't, why have you let such persons become god to you, for upholding their spiritual "wisdom" as higher than (and in contradiction to) God Almighty's???
Don't you think that is rather sad and pathetic that anyone would (and that so many people do)???
"Steve", you have been MORE THAN DEAD-WRONG about EVERY POINT of scriptural truth you have tried to FIGHT.
There is a Scripture that goes like so:
"He who is walking with wise persons will become wise, but he who is having dealings WITH THE STUPID ONES WILL FARE BADLY." (Proverbs 13:20)
By looking for LIES to FIGHT God's scriptural truth with, you have been listening to - having dealings with - THE STUPID ONES. That is true whether they bear the title "professor", "Dr.", "Reverend", or pop-religion book writer.
The FLOOD DATE DETERMINATION I shared is found IN GOD'S WORDS. It is, however, very DETAILED. I have that information at hand in a book; but I respect its copyrights and the reasoning for not copying-and-pasting it.
If you actually wish to learn how and why that UNIQUE GLOBAL DELUGE/ "GREAT FLOOD" DATE can be pinpointed to (the fall of) 2370 B.C.E.; than YOU can take the step of seeking out the book, "All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York). That detailed explanation is found on pages 283-286.
Since you have baselessly, fiercely, unjustly and aggressively tried to rip down to shreds even much simpler scriptural explanations here, rather than me waste my time, if you want that explanation from Jehovah-Yahweh's words of truth, YOU buy out the time and effort to do so - find someone nearby you with that book and study it.
It takes NO EFFORT to just look for lies against God and spread them around.
In CONTRAST, it does take effort to learn, apply, live and teach THIS God's scriptural truth.
P.S. Jesus was born in 2 B.C.E., and the rest of the "history" you've shared there is junk.
The "GREAT FLOOD" was unique in that it is global.
A LOT of archeology ATTESTS that there WAS, INDEED, such a GLOBAL DELUGE. It affected the ATMOSPHERE to a strong degree, with the drop of a planet-encircling water canopy dropping as rain to the surface. Entire huge land masses were displaced, and there is MUCH, MUCH more evidence that it happened, with animal fossils being found where they wouldn't otherwise reasonably be, etc.
AND AGAIN - AS YOU HAVE NOT BEEN "LISTENING" - The Bible, is THE ONLY Book that tells the TRUTH about the history of man FROM THE BEGINNING.
You DID NOT UNDERSTAND the point about Gilgamesh above, and also exploited my ("correction") words OUT OF CONTEXT.
The GREAT FLOOD DID NOT HAPPEN in what was supposedly the lifetime of the mythical"god-man" Gilgamesh. However, as I had also explained, "The Epic of Gilgamesh" COULD NOT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BEFORE THE GREAT FLOOD: It's inner testimony - of one character's RECOUNTING of the Great Flood Story (with some details that match the accurate, mythless scriptural account) is written as if it had ALREADY PASSED.
And, indeed, that UNIQUE GREAT FLOOD/ GLOBAL DELUGE HAD ALREADY PASSED.
Epic of Gilgamesh Story: About 2000 B.C.E.
God's VERBAL INSTRUCTIONS TO NOAH, the scriptural Great Flood Story (SOME of which is similar to items found in the "Flood Tablet" (XI) of the Epic of Gilgamesh: 2420-2410 B.C.E. - MUCH EARLIER THAN THAT "EPIC."
Again, the Epic was a case of a myth-legend utilizing bits of HISTORY to create really old historical/ folk FICTION.
(Interestingly, though, the Epic of Gilgamesh, upon examination, alludes to MORE biblically recorded history. In that Epic, the FALSE goddess of ancient infamy - Ishtar (aka Astarte/ Ashtar/ Ashtoreth [and later, Venus]) throws a fit to her father Shamesh [Baal, a FALSE god of huge ancient infamy, w] because Gilgamesh refuses to have sex with her. Both Ashtoreth and Baal are well scripturally documented as being the FALSE gods of many. Also, the very concept of Ashtoreth asking/demanding sex with Gilgamesh alludes back to the true, scripturally recorded history that "gods", spirit beings from the heavens came to earth to have unnatural sexual relations with the daughters of men, "taking wives for themselves, namely, all they chose." (Genesis 6:2,3) In other words, within Gilgamesh is found some cultural verification of false gods, a false goddess, and the PRE-FLOOD practice of sex worship, involving unnatural relations between a god/goddess and a human being (or mythical man-god). Even Gilgamesh, in his Epic, was described as being unusually sexually UNJUST, immoral, and greedy. Since he put that greed above justice, was he not as if idolizing sex, being a sex worshiper, like there were so many of before (and after) the FLOOD?
And worship of Baal (Shamesh)[sex god], Ashtoreth [goddess of sex and war], and sex? All of that remains HIGHLY PREVALENT TODAY, does it not? (The [phallic] sign of the cross still honors Baal. As for Ashtoreth, how many times does one see eight-pointed stars in building design and architecture? ( I see an example of that very often."
Also, again, I do not know who sold you the lies about "the Babylonians", nor why you bought them - but they are worthless as "facts."
The Israelites WERE NOT the first humans Yahweh worked with.
EARLIER, Jehovah-Yahweh worked with Adam, Enoch, Noah, and then other patriarchs (i.e., Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob [who became "Israel"] ) BEFORE the ancient Israelites were formed as a people. And where do you suppose they lived? Seattle? No, that would be the Middle East - relatively close to Babylon and Mesopotamia, the "cradle of civilization."
Again, the UNIQUELY ACCURATE BOOK OF THE HISTORY of mankind - which was penned down under the inspiration and supervision of God Almighty himself - testifies to these truths.
You truly need to DUMP whatever you based your false "knowledge" in your previous posts on; because it is that worthless.
God's WORDS TO NOAH (2420-2410 B.C.E.) were the SOURCE | Reviewer: theresa1 | 1/4/09
FROM "STEVE" - "Exactly! That means that the source of the flood myth *has to* come from a source *prior* to the bible's flood myth. Why? The Babylonian culture pre-dates the Israelites and their bible myth. The fact that the Babylonian myth *does* exist means that either the experience *was* of Gilgemesh or was borrowed from another culture such as the Summarians - which is the most common archeolocial view based on evidence.
You fail here to understand that the bible necissarily is left to borrow from the myth rather than give birth to it."
Jehovah-Yahweh's WORDS TO NOAH (2420-2410 B.C.E.), and WHAT RESULTED FROM THEM - what Noah did, how the Flood came to pass, etc. ARE THE SOURCE OF THE pre-Bible dated Flood Legends, INCLUDING the Gilgamesh myth.
NOAH related those words to his family; and he and his family experienced miraculous survival of that GOD-PURPOSED FLOOD.
AFTER the Flood, Noah and his family lived in the area of Babylonia. As his family/ descendents quickly multiplied, THEY PASSED ON - at least by word of mouth - THE STORY OF WHAT GOD HAD TOLD NOAH, and WHAT HAPPENED with the PURPOSED GREAT FLOOD that did occur.
However, as stated before, it did not take demons long, at all, after the Flood, to influence man AGAIN. Noah's great grandson - Nimrod - instigated mass rebellion against God by defying his passed-on mandate to spread out over the earth. He founded the city of Babel, started building its Tower, and, of course, was its leader. Under that rulership, FALSE, demon-inspired worship flourished.
As was already told, God interrupted the communications and so the work of those inhabitants by suddenly causing people to lose their one-shared language and to speak different ones. That caused people to disperse from that city, and to spread out to different areas with those who spoke their same language.
Again, as persons did this, THEY CARRIED THE FLOOD STORY WITH THEM.
As what happens with a game of "telephone", however, AS THE STORY WAS TOLD AND RETOLD, errors, both slight and large developed; and, of course, too, people would add-in their own perceptions.
Again, that is very obvious in the Gilgamesh myth. The Flood legend found within it is enframed by religious falsehood. That Epic also features the words and actions of never-alive false god and goddess illusions of demonic propaganda.
Nevertheless, the Flood legends/myths of the world that speak of a God-caused Flood ending all life except for a few survivors on board a ship - for being so widespread and engrained in different cultures - are a strong testimony to a global Flood as occurring. THEY SHARE COMMON THREADS.
Chances are, even YOU are culturally affected by the true Flood story. How?
Do you "do anything" for the GLOBAL celebration of Halloween/ Day of the Dead/ Samhain/ All Hallows Eve (preceeding "All Souls" Day) ? If so, whether you realize it or not, you are commemorating the memorial of all the persons, "All Souls" that God himself deemed worthy of destruction - "All Souls"/persons executed by God by his causing of the Great Flood, which occurred about the date corresponding with our November 2nd, 2370 B.C.E.
(Those loyal to THIS God, Jehovah-Yahweh, DO NOT share in memorializing those persons.)
So, again, the WORDS OF GOD, as found in his Holy Bible ARE ALWAYS TRUE, without myth.
ALTHOUGH the first five books of the Bible were not completed (penned-down for God) by Moses until 1513 B.C.E; THEIR DIVINELY OVERSEEN RETROSPECT (***relating what had previously happened***) OF SPIRITUALLY SIGNIFICANT EVENTS IN THE HISTORY OF MAN - WHICH DEFINITELY, majorly INCLUDED THE GREAT FLOOD, IS ACCURATE.
So to emphasize, again, the true SOURCE of the biblical Flood story is GOD'S WORDS TO NOAH and WHAT ACTUALLY HAPPENED with that Flood - AS ACCURATELY TOLD TO MOSES BY GOD HIMSELF.
Every other Great Flood (global Deluge) myth-legend-story was DERIVED FROM or is reflective of this SAME SOURCE (either God's words to Noah and the Flood events; or God's later SAME words to Moses about what He had told Noah, and what had happened with that Flood). The other myths/legends/stories DO NOT PRE-DATE GOD'S ORIGINAL WORDS AND DEALINGS WITH NOAH AND THE GLOBAL DELUGE.
Moreover, for all of its busy trying-to-discredit-scriptural-truth; THE ENTIRE WARNING MESSAGE-LESSON (FOR OUR DAY) OF THE SCRIPTURAL GREAT FLOOD STORY LARGELY EVADES the minds and hearts of those engrossed in trying to malign it so as to "free" themselves and others of its implications:
THIS GOD, Jehovah-Yahweh, WILL SOON AGAIN BRING A GLOBAL CATACLYSM onto the WORLD OF MANKIND.
Our world is, again, in a state similar to as it was in the pre-Flood days - filled with violence, injustice and wickness stemming from God-rebellion and spiritual LIES. God found it necessary to clean most of human society off the planet then; and he has foreseen and is warning that he will have to do it again, on the SOON-to-come Armageddon Day.
Again, as the scriptural Flood story teaches, as in the case of Noah and his family - only eight persons, out of all those then alive - God will be entirely SELECTIVE over who he will let survive, and who he will be getting rid of (permanently).
God let Noah and his family survive because they were righteous - they listened to their Maker-God's instructions, AND OBEYED ALL OF THEM. When God told Noah to do something, as recorded, "He did just so." (Genesis 6:22)
Noah was also "A PREACHER OF RIGHHTEOUSNESS." (2Peter 2:5). His faith, as demonstrated by his obedience and loyalty to God, "condemned the world" (Hebrews 11:7) of those around him who MOCKED and RIDICULED his Divinely-given WARNINGS that God was soon going to bring punishment - destruction - upon humanity for its overt wickedness and rebellion towards Him.
It has been scripturally prophesied, again and again, that, JUST AS IN THE pre-FLOOD DAYS OF NOAH, most of mankind during these last pre-Armageddon days would NOT HEED Jehovah-Yahweh's scriptural warnings regarding His upcoming global destruction of all God-rebellious persons.
As Jesus related, "the world" (the majority of mankind, alienated from God) would show HATE for God's words and messengers of them. (John 15:18-20; 17:14)
Many persons would react to disciplining and warning scriptural messages and messengers of them with hate, RIDICULE, MOCKING, devious and deceptive speech, FALSE "intellectualism" (which DOES "NOT APPROVE OF HOLDING GOD IN ACCURATE KNOWLEDGE" (Romans 1:28), slander, and other unjust persecutions.
"...in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
5 For, ACCORDING TO THEIR WISH, THIS FACT ESCAPES THEIR NOTICE, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men." (2Peter 3:3-7)
There is more, but doesn't even this make you want to perhaps turn around from where you've been headed with your public scriptural Flood Story malignment and ridicule of what is from God?
The non-scriptural, scrappy Flood legends and myths of the world do not, in any way, sufficiently have the driving, life-saving warning lesson-purpose for the (entire) world now that the scriptural Flood story does.
Using a scriptural reference to the days of Noah, God's Son also prophesied that in the "last days", most people would be too busy and distracted, serving their own personal interests and pleasures first, to listen to God's warnings and heed/obey them. They would take "no note" of the importance and meaning of Jehovah-Yahweh's words and warning examples, UNTIL IT IS TOO LATE, and God again closes the "door" of the "ark."
"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be." (Matthew 24:37-39)
I can "hear" it slowly creaking shut already.
Indicators are that Yahweh is NOT Going to Believe in YOU | Reviewer: theresa1 | 1/3/09
"Steve": Don't call me "sugar" - I find that extremely OFFENSIVE coming from someone who is not only choosing to publically slander and BLASPHEME this God (just like the U2 taught their fans to do) with Yahweh-Jehovah PROPHESIED-style "EMPTY SPEECH" and "FALSELY CALLED KNOWLEDGE"; but has also, WITHOUT INTELLIGENT OR JUST REASON AT ALL TO DO SO, tried to discredit my writing by twisting and exploiting my words and then falsely representing them (which is markedly CORRUPT, IMMORAL, UNETHICAL, etc.), and (UNJUSTLY) ridiculed, SLANDERED, and belittled me with stupid, abusive cheap shots.
UNLIKE those I know who worship THIS GOD, Jehovah-Yahweh and so follow his scriptural "spirit and truth"; YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM HAS PRODUCED IN YOU A HIGHLY CORRUPT PERSON - even a public SLANDERER.
ALSO, those I have seen over the years who espouse THE SAME general CREEDO of "godlessness" as you do - those who make it a project to fiercely FIGHT this God (that IS, btw, WHO you are fighting) with any of the entire endless spectrum of man (and DEMON)-made-and-spread bru-ha-ha babble-dung that such persons come up with for their "EXCUSES" - have also exhibited the same IMMORAL/UNETHICAL, CORRUPT and UNJUST SPEECH and BEHAVIOR YOU HAVE, on this board.
Therefore, I must conclude, AGAIN, and, all the more SOLIDLY, that the "belief system" of persons that find it necessary to FIGHT warning messages and the whole of the righteous scriptural truth of THIS God is, truly, a WORLD-RUINING and LIFE-RUINING "belief system".
ALONG WITH the FALSE (anti-scriptural/antichrist) religionists of the world, such "godless" ones offer NOTHING OF SPIRITUAL WORTH to HUMANITY, and indeed, CONTRIBUTE TO MANKIND'S RUIN with all of the INJUSTICES their doctrines/ beliefs/ creedos have PRODUCED as their (rotten) "FRUITAGE". That has been the case since Satan offered Adam and Eve their FALSE "FREEDOM" from Jehovah-Yahweh if they would simply choose rebellion against him.
You asked for examples of injustices worked by atheists, and I gave you YOUR OWN corruption-laden writing (with its twisted false accusations/ pathetic slander).
Now, here's more.
Soon after WWII, Stalin-enfervored atheists along the western border of the former Soviet Union thought they had better do something to try to silence the scriptural TRUTH (including its warning messages) being spoken by those of my religion. So, they barged into the homes of families in the middle of the night; and forced them onto trains like livestock - men, women, and children without adequate provisions whatsoever - to Siberia. There, their lives were abused. They suffered, and some died.
It is good to know that THIS only TRUE and Living God, Yahweh-Jehovah, is a lover of JUSTICE. UNLIKE atheists, as the world has eye-witnessed, JUSTICE is a standard of this Person of God. It is good to know that Jehovah-Yahweh WILL SOON BE EXERCISING HIS RIGHTFUL VENGEANCE against his (stubborn-though-warned) enemies - (actually unrepentent) persons who have made trouble for his servants, ranging from slander to murder. (2Thessalonians 1:6-8)
Also, around that same time, atheists in that area (Russia) were obsessed with trying to change the minds of those of my religion - much like has been seen here. That included unjust tactics - public slander/lie propaganda, surveillence, unjust detainment/imprisonment, separating families, etc.
If the "TRUTH" of atheism is so "VALID", do tell: WHY HAVE ATHEISTS FOUND IT "NECESSARY" TO RESORT TO SUCH UNJUST and UNRIGHTEOUS MEANS TO TRY TO FORCE THEIR VIEWPOINT ON WHAT ARE SPIRITUAL ISSUES????????? Are the tenets of such a "belief system" so junky-trash that injustice and DECEPTION must be employed in order to get persons of an opposing viewpoint to accept them? How is that, then, essentially different from "baptism with the sword", Inquisitions, etc. that have been practiced by Catholicism, etc.????????
Atheism (like FALSE religions) has NOTHING of elevating spiritual-mental TRUTH to offer anyone at all - and IT HAS jealously HATED that THE "COMPETITION" DOES.
I skimmed, but, this time, really didn't bother "reading" your posts - there doesn't seem to be anything new in them; just the common jaw-jaw-jaw of the bulk-mass-blob of God rebels - and I won't even bother with the link.
I can't help you.
Everyone makes their choice, and, as of today, yours is to be with the bulk-mass blob majority, spiritually-mentally (along with Pentacostals, elephant worshipers, etc.)
But you DID receive a warning. (If you even have a Bible, see if you can read Ezekiel 3:17-21.)
BUT, YOU ARE NOT THE OTHER 6.5 BILLION PEOPLE ON THIS PLANET. What you choose to only to try to rip up has APPEAL to OTHER persons - those who have an ear for truth - every day.
The truth about the God whose name is Jehovah/Yahweh is CERTAIN to BE VINDICATED (and the soon-coming Armageddon will be a very big part of that). HE will CAUSE that TO BECOME.
Final note on the flood | Reviewer: Steve | 1/2/09
There's an assumption, among many you make, that is errant and needs to be cleared up if for no other reason than for your own sake. You assume that there is only one flood myth...which is why you assume that the biblical flood myth spawned the myth in the epic. This is your justification that the epic comes after the tale of the plight of Noah - archeology and verifiable dates be damned. The fact is, the first flood myth begins with the Summarians, however even the Caddo indians of North America, tribes of africa, portions of cultures in Europe...Almost every culture has their own flood myth and each of these myths *don't* have a correlary event date. Meaning, there is no implication that one specific event happened and that these cultures are merely making sense of it in their own way. There is *no* evidence of a *global* flood that is found through the science of archeology. Each culture simply has their own myth pertaining to a flood...as well as many other non-sensical natural disaster myths. Again if you simply look at the inaccessibility of the Genesis myth to the, say, Caddo indians, there is no way to link the two to say the Caddo were 'borrowing' the tale from the bible - as you claim is the case for Gilgemesh. The truth is, the Summarian flood is believed to be borrowed in the epic and in turn, the epic flood borrowed by the bible...and for good reason - archeology. But, you have fun believing what you believe and ignoring science.
EXACTLY !!! | Reviewer: Steve | 1/2/09
"Correction: Further, it could not have been a case of THE "FLOOD" SECTION of this Epic also being written in TRUTHFUL retrospect of “Gilgamesh’s” experiences, those occurring during his lifetime (said to be 2500-2750 B.C.E.) [He could NOT have been told of the Flood story during his supposed "lifetime."]......" - teresa1
Exactly! That means that the source of the flood myth *has to* come from a source *prior* to the bible's flood myth. Why? The Babylonian culture pre-dates the Israelites and their bible myth. The fact that the Babylonian myth *does* exist means that either the experience *was* of Gilgemesh or was borrowed from another culture such as the Summarians - which is the most common archeolocial view based on evidence.
You fail here to understand that the bible necissarily is left to borrow from the myth rather than give birth to it. Further, you fail to take them all as myth and not only seem certain that there was only *one* supposed flood and that it happened at such-and-such date, but you are certain that it happend in the *fall* of such-and-such year...with *no freaking way* of knowing any of that hog-wash - which is most likely why you provide NO cites with the claim...in the face of endless cites in the form of book:chapter:verse where the 'book' is the bible! If the bible is from God, then the only thing that should be said of Him is that his long-term memory is very crappy (i.e. inspires highly inaccurate history)...and that, despite creating a very robust universe bound by the laws of physics, He's absolutely *devoid* of scientific prowess...*IF* we are to believe God wrote/inspired Genesis - a book of legend and factual errancy !!! Either God is omnicient and omnipotent...*OR* he authored Genesis.
Ok then! | Reviewer: Steve | 12/30/08
By the way, I just now went back to read what you'd written. Man, that's funny! Your dates are ALL wrong, sugar. I'd love to see your source for how you get the Babylonians to come *after* the followers of Yahweh!
I'm sure you'll say that the link below is from some "false" Christian and so her research is unreliable, however, I'm including it here for your consideration. The dates are not in despute by *anyone*...except you. The link here shows apologetics for answering "the tales are so similar, can the bible be legitimate?". If you feel that I should include more cites for establishing the date of the flood myth, I'll be happy to...as long as you realize that quoting from the document in question doesn't, in fact, prove said document's legitimacy. That means you'll have to counter with something OTHER THAN the bible. :)
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